Minutes Of The Kennel Club Shows Liaison Council

Held on 21 April 2010, 11am.

 

PRESENT:                       Mr C Atkinson                     Area 4

                                      Mr J Bispham                     Area 4

                                      Miss P Clayton                   Area 7

                                      Mrs B Croucher                  Area 3

                                      Mr S Green                         Area 6

                                      Mr J Kitchener                    General & Group

                                      Mrs L King                          Area 7

                                      Mrs J Lane                         General & Group

                                      Miss S Lund                       General & Group

                                      Mrs F Marshall                    Area 5

                                      Mrs A Mitchell                     General & Group

                                      Mr G Osborne                    Area 8

                                      Mr J Peach                         General & Group

                                      Mr N Price                          Area 3

                                      Mrs W Reeves                    Area 7

                                      Mr R A Rowe                      Area 4

                                      Mrs E Stannard                  Area 4

                                      Mr A Taylor                         Area 5

                                      Mr R Taylor                         Area 6

                                      Mr R Vincent                       Area 8

                                     

IN ATTENDANCE:  

Miss S Cooper            Breed Shows Team Leader

Miss K Marsh              Breed Shows Team Specialist

 

ITEM 1.          APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE

  1. Apologies for absence were received from the following Council members.

Mrs S Johnston         Area 1

Mrs I McManus          Area 1

Miss S R Thomson   Area 1

Mr W McKnight          Area 2

Mrs P Barnes            Area 5

Mr M Spark                Area 5

Mr R Greaves            Area 6

Mrs S Jakeman         General & Group

 

ITEM 2.          TO ELECT A CHAIRMAN FOR THE TERM OF THE COUNCIL

  1. It was proposed by Mr Rowe and seconded by Mr Taylor that Mr Bispham be elected as Chairman for the term of the Council.  A further nomination was received for Mrs Stannard, Mrs Stannard thanked Mr Vincent, but stated that she did not wish to stand against Mr Bispham for the role of Chairman.  No further nominations were received and Mr Bispham was duly elected as Chairman.

IN THE CHAIR: MR BISPHAM

  1. Mr Bispham thanked the Council for its support and went on to welcome the new area representatives to the Council.  

 

ITEM 3.          TO ELECT A VICE-CHAIRMAN FOR THE TERM OF THE

COUNCIL

  1. It was proposed by Mr Vincent and seconded by Mr Osbourne that Mrs Stannard be elected as Vice- Chairman for the term of the Council.  A second nomination was received from Mr Rowe, seconded by Mrs Marshall, for Miss Clayton.  A third nomination from Miss Clayton and seconded by Mrs Reeves, for Mr R Taylor.
  1. A ballot was conducted and Mrs Stannard was duly elected as Vice-Chairman.

 

ITEM 4.          TO ELECT A MEMBER FOR THE SHOW EXECUTIVE SUB-

                        COMMITTEE FOR THE TERM OF THE COUNCIL

6.      Mr Bispham explained to the Council, that the Chairman of every Council is automatically placed on to the relevant Sub-Committee, but that the Council must vote for an additional member to also serve on the Show Executive Sub-Committee (SEC).

7.      It was proposed by Mr Rowe and seconded by Mr Vincent that Mrs Stannard be elected to the SEC.  It was proposed by Miss Clayton and seconded by Mrs Reeves that Mr R Taylor be elected on to the SEC. 

8.      A ballot was conducted and Mrs Stannard was elected to serve on the SEC.

                       

ITEM 5.          PRESENTATION TO THE COUNCIL ON KENNEL CLUB STRUCTURES AND PROCEDURES

9. The Office gave a presentation to the Council giving details of the Kennel Club, Liaison Council Structure, and the role of the Council representatives.  

 

ITEM 6.          TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE MEETING HELD ON 15.04.2009

10. The minutes of the previous meeting were signed by the Chairman as true record of the previous meeting.

 

ITEM 7.          RESULTS OF RECOMMENDATIONS – MEETING 15.04.2009.

11. The office gave a verbal report of the recommendations for the following items from the Council’s previous meeting:

a.      That the Kennel Club should relax the four per class average

rule OR that the averages for vulnerable breeds, need not be included in the final analysis figure in the show returns.

The office explained that at its recent meeting, the General Committee had relaxed the four per class average rule and that as of 1st January 2010, general canine societies no longer need to include the number of entries made in Breed Club Supported Entry Classes in their Open show class average calculations.  Societies are encouraged to contact breed clubs, particularly for numerically small breeds, to explore options for supported entry classes. Breed clubs will be able to suggest an appropriate number of classes, suitable judges and will undertake to encourage their membership to enter the show.

Such steps should mean that these classes are well supported with entries.  If these efforts are successful and the number of entries improves a show’s average per class, they can be included in the calculations.  However, if the classes fail to attract the entry hoped for, the society need not include them in the average calculation and risk a drop in their overall average.

The Council requested that its disappointment, that the four per class average had not been dropped, be noted.

b.     That the award for Best of Breed (In Stud Book Bands A-D) at General Championship Shows, where Challenge Certificates are not on offer, should automatically qualify a dog for Crufts.

The office confirmed that this matter would be referred to the next available Crufts Sub-Committee meeting for consideration.

c.      That the criteria to judge Group or Variety classes at an Open

Show be extended to include those Judges that are on a A2 or A3 and B list for two or more breeds within the specific group.

 This matter had been considered by the SEC, and it was of the view that only CC awarding judges should be eligible to judge Group and Variety Classes at Shows, therefore it did not recommend the proposal for approval.

d.     That the Show Certificate of Merit be amended, so that the points gained for BIS, RSBIS, BOB, and the BAVNSC are the same for show judges on and off the group system.

The office confirmed that this matter was due to be discussed by the SEC, as it would also be reviewing the Junior Warrant points system.

 

ITEM 8.          PROPOSALS FROM SOCIETIES

Proposed:      Harrogate & District Canine Society

Seconded:     Nidderdale Agricultural Society

‘That each Region must hold a meeting of Societies after the distribution of the Agenda for the KCLC Meeting so that proposed items can be discussed and views of the Region be taken forward (rather than the elected Representatives own personal views) and vote accordingly.

  1. Mrs Marshall, on behalf of Harrogate & District Canine Society, explained that the club was concerned that there were too few meetings held by other areas, and that the views expressed at the Council meetings, were those of the representatives, as opposed to the areas that they represent.
  1. The Council noted that the guidelines for Liaison Councils stated ‘Representatives are encouraged to hold regional/group meeting to give feedback on items discussed and seek input for future meetings.  In the absence of meetings in their areas Representatives are encouraged to ensure they have means of communication with all participants in their activity in their area.’
  1.  The Council discussed this matter and agreed that it was not always possible to hold area meetings. The Council further agreed that the guidelines should remain as they are and that each representative should make every effort to gage the views of the societies within its remit, whether by holding meetings, sending letters or emails, or even sending out questionnaires on particular items due to be discussed.  The Council requested that when sending out the minutes for the meeting, the office also send all the representatives the contact details of the societies within their areas.

Graduate Class should be a Crufts’ Qualifier

Proposed:      Wombwell & District Canine Society

Seconded:     Harrogate & District Canine Society

‘That at Championship Shows, Graduate Class should be a Crufts’ qualifying class.

  1. Mrs Marshall, on behalf on Wombwell & District Canine Society, explained that it was felt that the jump from Junior to Post Graduate class for qualification as at present (except for E band breeds which may be fortunate to be allocated a Yearling qualifying class), resulted in exhibitors entering dogs in Post Graduate which were much too immature.  A qualifier in Graduate class would alleviate this and prevent the huge classes at Post Graduate level.
  1. The Council discussed this matter and agreed that there was far too much emphasis on qualifying dogs for DFS Crufts rather than the allowing it to mature gradually.  The Council agreed that there were many breeds that took longer to mature than others and it was also pointed out that Judge’s critiques often mentioned how some dogs are too immature to be entered into specific classes.  The Council was of the view that making the Graduate class a DFS Crufts qualifier would lessen the qualification unnecessarily.  Therefore, this proposal did not receive the support of the Council.

Risk Assessments and Safety/Fire Risk

Proposed:      Saltburn & District Canine Society

Seconded:     Harrogate & District Canine Society

‘That the Kennel Club formulate and supply and outline guidance for the formulation of Risk and Fire Risk Assessments.

  1. Mr A Taylor, on behalf of Saltburn & District Canine Society, stated that some societies experienced difficulty in finding suitably qualified or knowledgeable persons to advise and explained that it would appreciate guidance on this.
  1.  The office confirmed that there was information and examples of risk assessments available in the ‘Manual for Kennel Club Registered Societies/Clubs’ and that there were also regular notices concerning risk assessments published in the Kennel Gazette.
  1. The Council agreed that the Kennel Club should offer clear guidance on what is required of guarantors when carrying out risk assessments for individual shows. The Council supported this proposal and praised the Incident Report books that were sent out by the Kennel Club in 2009, and recommended that the proposed sample risk assessment should be in the same format.

Judging of Best Puppy in Show before Best in Show

Proposed:      Nidderdale Agricultural Society

Seconded:     Chester-le-Street & District Canine Society

‘That Best Puppy in Show should be judged before Best in Show

  1. Mr A Taylor, on behalf on Nidderdale Agricultural Society, explained that it was felt that Best in Show should be the culmination of the judging and not as at present when there is often an anti-climax particularly if a Puppy has a mandatory Best Puppy in Show placing.
  1. The Council noted that this particular item had been discussed many times in the past.  Whilst it acknowledged that many people were of the view that BIS in show should be the culmination of judging, it was of the view that a change could cause much confusion, particularly at shows that are not held on the group system, and when there are different judges judging BIS and BPIS.  This proposal did not receive the support of the Council.

Regional Council Mid-Term Vacancies

Proposed:      Harrogate & District Canine Society

Seconded:     Nidderdale Agricultural  Society

‘That when a vacancy for the Kennel Club Liaison Council (Shows Council) should arise mid-term in a Region, a new Representative may be co-opted (with full voting rights) by the delegates at a Regional Meeting of Societies within that Region, for the remainder of that term of office.’

  1. This proposal was withdrawn as it was noted that it was already adequately covered in the P Regulations of the Kennel Club Year Book.

Rule for 'Withdrawal' to Remain ''Unbeaten''

Proposed:      Humberside Hound Association

Seconded:     Beverley and District Canine Society. 

Ref: F(1)   9 (k 1);  9 (20 c)

‘That exhibitors should apply officially to the Show Management (rather than the Judge or Ring Steward)  if they wish to withdraw from a class(es)  to remain unbeaten for Best in Group, Best in Show etc. in order to avoid the confusion caused at present. 

  1. Mrs Marshall, on behalf of Humberside Hound Association, explained that the rule for withdrawal to remain unbeaten was causing problems when exhibitors do not officially withdraw. 
  1. The Council discussed this matter and was of the view that many secretaries, particularly those running General Championship Shows, would be overwhelmed with exhibitors withdrawing from AV classes, and could potentially deal with hundreds of withdrawals.  This proposal did not receive the support of the Council.

To allow dogs on the Imported Register to compete in Any Variety classes

To be presented by a North East Representative.

Proposed:      Beverley and District Canine Society. 

Seconded:     Humberside Hound Association

Ref:  F (A)

‘That dogs on the Imported Register should be allowed to compete in the Any Variety classes - particularly at open shows but preferably at ALL types of show. 

  1. Mr A Taylor, on behalf of Beverley & District Canine Society, explained that owners of Imported Register dogs are becoming increasingly discontented because they can only enter the Imported Register classes at shows, and think it would be fairer all round it they were able to compete in the AV classes at shows.
  1. The Council considered the proposal and agreed that Import Register classes often went unnoticed at shows and that allowing dogs on the Import Register to compete in AV classes would help the breeds to be viewed by a range of exhibitors who may then become interested in the different breeds on the Import Register, therefore, enabling them develop as a breed.  This proposal received the support of the Council.

Benching Tents Close to Rings

Proposed:      Beverley and District Canine Society. 

Seconded:     Humberside Hound Association

‘That all shows providing benching, have benching tents close to the rings - preferably tenting where breed benches are at the back, the breed ring is in front of this - and continues outdoors to give both dry and wet weather rings adjacent to the benching. 

  1. There was no discussion on this proposal as it was not seconded at the meeting.   

Benching of More than One Breed Together

Proposed:      Beverley and District Canine Society. 

Seconded:     Humberside Hound Association

That exhibitors with more than one breed should be able to apply for all dogs to be benched together and specify which breed benching they wish to use.

  1. Mrs Marshall, on behalf of Beverley & District Canine Society, explained that many exhibitors with more than one breed, found it increasingly difficult to look after different breeds of dogs at shows, when they are benched so far apart.
  1. The Council discussed the proposal, and emphasised the wide ranging sizes benches for different breeds.  It was agreed that it would be impractical to allow exhibitors specify where they wished to be benched.  
  1. It was noted that when contacted by individual exhibitors, many show secretaries often did their best to bench two breeds owned by one exhibitor together, but agreed that it was not always possible to accommodate such requests and it would be unfair to expect secretaries to agree each request.  Having discussed the proposal at length, it did not receive the support of the Council.

Junior Warrants (JW)

Proposed:      Golden Retriever Breed Council

Regulation K3.190/3(a)

‘The Golden Retriever Breed Council requests that consideration is given to amending this Regulation to take account of the situation that can occur at Championship Shows or at Open Shows where separate sex classes are scheduled.

  1. Mrs Mitchell, on behalf of the Golden Retriever Breed Council, explained that that in order for the Junior Warrant points system to be consistent, it needs to be amended to allow the winner of Best Puppy in Breed to claim a point for this award.  This was a particular problem for those dogs, when there was only one or two other exhibits in its breed class; that dog could challenge the winning opposite sex puppy, be awarded Best Puppy in Breed, and go even further in the competition, yet it is unable to claim a Junior Warrant point.
  1. The Council was in complete agreement with this proposal and it received its full support.

Addresses on Schedules

Proposed:      Golden Retriever Breed Council

‘At the last meeting, Delegates to Council discussed the requirement under this Regulation that the names and addresses of the Guarantors for the Show; and the Secretary’s name, address and telephone number must be printed on the front outside cover or title page of the Schedule.

  1. Mrs Mitchell, on behalf of the Golden Retriever Breed Council, explained that it was felt that there is a security risk to property as it could easily be assumed that the homes of the Guarantors and Secretary would be unoccupied during the day of a show.  Mrs Mitchell went on to explain that this is information is not required for Field Trial schedules and also, that it is now possible for Exhibitors to withhold their addresses from show catalogues.
  1.  This proposal received the full support of the Council, and it was recommended that the word addresses be removed from Regulation F(1).8.c.(1).  Therefore, it was recommended that the Regulation be amended as follows;

From

On the front outside cover or title page, the name of the Show Society, the type, venue and date of the Show as described on the licence, and any addition title for which prior permission has been given by the General Committee of the Kennel Club; the names and addresses of the Guarantors of the Show, and the Secretary’s name, address and telephone number.

To

On the front outside cover or title page, the name of the Show Society, the type, venue and date of the Show as described on the licence, and any addition title for which prior permission has been given by the General Committee of the Kennel Club; the names (and addresses)of the Guarantors of the Show, and the Secretary’s name, address and telephone number.

(Deletion in brackets)

Champion’s Class at Breed Club Open Shows

Proposed:      Southern Newfoundland Club – Ms Rachel Hutchinson

‘We would be grateful if you would consider the following request for a possible change in the KC Rules as they currently stand regarding holding a Champion’s Class at a Breed Club Open Show.  The number of entries continues to fall at many Open Shows, mainly due to the cost of entry, travel and fuel, together with the decline in the number of new judges being able to progress on lists held by breed clubs because of the large number of classes and entries judges require to progress.  If the Kennel Club were to change the present rules and allow clubs to put on Champion stakes class at their Open Shows we feel that this would be a very positive step forward.

35. Mr Vincent, on behalf of the Southern Newfoundland Club, explained that this rule change would not only benefit the number of entries at Open shows, it would also be great assistance in the development of ‘B’ list judges.  Mr Vincent also explained that the suggestion is that Breed Clubs put on two extra classes – Champion stakes (Dogs) and Champion stakes (Bitches).  The new classes would be stakes classes the ultimate winners of the Champion stakes classes would not be eligible to compete for Best in Show. 

36. The Council was advised that Breed Clubs usually request a judge from a club’s ‘B’ judging list and this would, therefore, boost the number of dogs a judge has gone over and would also give those judges the opportunity to go over Championship wining dogs, dogs that they may otherwise not have had the opportunity to go over before.   

37. This proposal received the full support of the Council, on the proviso that scheduled after BIS. It was therefore recommended that the definition for a Champion Class be amended to allow Breed Shows to schedule the class. The proposed amendment to the definition of a Champion Class is as follows;

From

For dogs which have been confirmed a Champion, Show Champion or Field Trial Champion. Champion Classes may not be scheduled for individual breeds or variety of breeds.

To

For dogs which have been confirmed a Champion, Show Champion or Field Trial Champion. Champion Classes may not be scheduled for individual breeds or variety of breeds. (At Breed Club Open Shows, a Champion Stakes Class may be scheduled, which must be held after Best in Show).

(Amendment underlined)

 

ITEM 8.          LIAISON COUNCIL AREAS.

  1. As a result of a review by the Obedience Council, the Shows Council was requested, by the General Committee, to consider a recommendation to alter the allocation of counties to regions as described in the P Regulations.  (Proposed list attached at Annex A)
  1. The Council noted that at present, come General Canine Societies attend meetings out of their allocated area, as it was more convenient.  It was also noted that the areas most effected by this proposed change would be area’s 4, 5, 6 and 7.  The representatives from area 6 were concerned that they would be losing 14 societies due to Lincolnshire moving to area 7, whilst area 7 were concerned at the 14 societies this area would gain. 
  1. The concerns of the representatives were noted and a vote ensued.  The result of the vote was in favour of proposal, and the reservations of areas 6 and 7 were duly noted.

 

ITEM 9.           ANY OTHER BUSINESS.

41. Mrs Marshall queried whether or it would be possible to have ‘reserve’ representatives for areas. There was concern that in some areas, the views of the societies were not adequately expressed due to the absence of their representative. 

42. The Council discussed this matter and agreed that in most instances, representatives sent their apologies for meetings at the last minute and there would not be sufficient time to let the reserve representative know that their presence it required.

43. It was then suggested that those representatives that were unable to attend meeting, contact that Chairman of the Council and tell him how they intend to vote on particular items, giving him a ‘proxy’ vote.  The Council agreed that the idea of a proxy vote should be brought back as a proposal at the next meeting.

44.  Mr Osborne queried whether or not Council representatives would receive a badge, which would identify them as a representative.  The office confirmed that badges, and a laminated notice identifying them as Shows Council Representatives would be sent out to all Representatives as soon as possible.

ITEM 10.         DATE OF NEXT MEETING.

45. The Council noted that the next meeting was subject to confirmation of Boardroom booking, and that the office would confirm the date as soon as possible.

 

The meeting rose at 3.35 with a vote of thanks to the chair. 

 

MR J BISPHAM

CHAIRMAN

 
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